The lawlessness and brutality of the cartels also filters down to small non-narco gangs that act with impunity due to the ineffective judicial system in Mexico.
These gangs kidnap, extort and murder knowing the possibility of getting caught is negligible. This is just another layer of criminal activity that goes mostly unnoticed because the cartels take precedent with the media and law enforcement.
Very good point DonDon. The big players shatter the system and set the rules and the small players can follow suit. It's a viscous circle. Best there friend.
Yeah, going to that ranch was macabre. But to be honest, I've covered more horrible scenes like when the corpses are all still there. It's kind of hard to realize you are doing it all although one day I might stop and go fxxx.
Fascinating and kind of hilarious about Hitler. Is that really true? Crazy. Same shit, different news story!
Journalists, of your rare breed, are, in the long run, like gang members coping with violence. We're all human. There aren't that many ways to deal with trauma.
Regards Germany, it seems logical that company manufacturing of drugs was the same as it is now. I can appreciate the NPR article without taking a deep dive. Thanks for the 'same shit' outtake :)
Thanks there brother. Yeah, it's funny how you see cops and their gangster witnesses who actually become friends to the point of sending each other Christmas cards. It's because they have seen the same dark world - and I think some us journos have seen it too and can raise a glass with them. Great lead there to dig in on German pharmaceuticals. A lot of drugs originated in the German chemicals industry.
I've seen it to. Sometimes used to have coffee with the local cop who ran a small mafia. And there have been politicians I've liked, eaten and enjoyed meals with, despite knowing I couldn't trust them, and that they'd turn on me in an instant if there were gain for them.
Yeah, that 400,000 number is a real jaw dropper. Perhaps two thirds are from the cartel war, although that figure is hard to figure. At some point I need the comparison of Mexico to other wars story. All best PinHead.
A cartel has people who do business but also employs sicarios.
My question is: if part of business is to extort, kidnap/ransom, racketeer then what is the difference between these two. I imagine the "business" persons also as henchmen due to the tasks related with their "job". lots of quotations there haha.
Thanks Stevie. I think these job positions can be blurred and also vary among groups. But the bigger cartels have people who are more dedicated to business and financial matters and things like laundering money, and others organizing shipments, or running distribution cells. And they have straight muscle, and people who are in cells of gunmen and go and kill whoever they are ordered to. Even with shakedowns they people who identify targets and get money, and pure killers who can be brought in. Hope that makes sense there. Best, Ioan
This is insane that it keeps happening over and over again. This is the reason why they are on the foriegn terrorist organizations list. The mob never had mass clandestine Graves like this in the united states. The only thing that compares to this in the states would probably be the slaughtering of the native Americans. Maybe the trail of tears or the wounded knee massacre. But what we see in Mexico is already khmer Rouge levels. It's ridiculous and Mexicans kept trying to "deflect" to the United States. It's pathetic. If the United States was the same as Mexico crime and violence wise then you wouldn't see that many Mexicans in the states in the first place. I say this as a Mexican American for crying out loud.
Very worthy points there Jonathan. I have no time for the arguments that there is not an extraordinary level of violence in Mexico that is well beyond normal levels of crime.
When was the last time you heard of a mass extermination site uncovered in America? Maybe where serial killers hid their victims but even then. It pales in comparison. The mob did dump bodies in secret graves but was it ever at this level?
Ioan, I don't think war crimes trials in the past have been too successful nor just. World Court in the Hague is a perfect example of selective prosecution ignoring the real culprits of the genocides. The Nuremburg trials was extremely limited basically to Nazi's who could not offer, primarily the US, skills that was needed by the Allies. Certainly very few individuals could convince a country to ignore the past violence done to them like Nelson Mandela did in South Africa. But those desires for revenge fueled with the ideas of justice did not go away in South Africa and the attacks on whites and their farms has reignited. President Tito because of his past actions and his strength kept Yugoslavia together but when he died the country exploded in violence.
Soviet Union's collapse and a complete down spin into violence and corruption is very similar to Mexico now and of course Russia's collapse was ended by the strong leader in Putin. The sad reality is the lawlessness not only of cartels but also of the government does not lead to many non-violent solutions that could work.
Thanks Tom, and very interesting thoughts as always. I largely agree that the idea of war crimes tribunals is probably politically impossible and wouldn't solve the problem. The idea of truth commissions can have some benefits - like getting more truth out there - but again doesn't solve the fundamentals, and can involve a lot of grandiose statements being thrown out there. In some ways, I think the Mexican narco conflict might be a form or 30 year war and will finally die down from a mix of demographics and gradually building a more effective law enforcement, but let's see. People likely to have to accept aggressive law enforcement to deal with hyper violent criminals. Best friend.
The troubles did last for 30 years. And people thought it was politically impossible to end it. But a peace deal was worked out. So who knows. But Israel Palestine has been 75 years already and its still ongoing. Colombia 55 years and still ongoing. Somali civil war 35 years and still ongoing,
Myanmar conflict nearly 80 years and still ongoing so their is that too. I hope Mexico won't join that list of a forever violence ridden country but God only knows
Absolutely. And cops have been widely celebrated in U.S. popular culture (with the big exception of the 2020 backlash) which I think reflects something real.
Yeah obviously American police aren't perfect. They have had fuck ups. Rodney king beating, goerge floyed, and their relationship with the minority communities but for the most part American law enforcement has always held the standard. The first swat team was created in the united states. Granted they are heavily scrutinized now and recruitment numbers are low across departments and the pay is pretty poor. Maybe not Mexico levels of poor but it's its not top dollar. That is definitely scary to me regarding the cartels
But your average American patrol officer has way more firepower than the average municipal policeman in Mexico who I hear have to share their equipment half the time
I would call the horrible violence in Mexico as another terrible example of the extreme arrogance of power where they tolerate no opposition and any slight they take to the most extreme levels of personal hatred resulting in death. They know instilling fear will enhance their power and force cooperation from everyone around. This extreme violence can also be an expression of vengeance resulting from class and cultural hatred against anyone who dares to challenge their authority.
Unfortunately history has been littered with these explosions of mass violence. From Idi Amin in Uganda, Jean Bokassa of the Central African Republic, Macias Ngueno of Equatorial Guinea, Papa Doc Duvalier in Haiti, Mao Sedung on his march of victory 1945-1947, Mau Mau uprising in Kenya and a very huge explosion of violence in a short time in Rwanda 1992. These explosions result from a previous history of tribal and ethnic violence resulting from the colonial designs of European powers. Mexico's colonial history was riddled with violence, corruption and class violence. The violence of Nazi Germany and Stalin in Soviet Union was more calculated and direct expression of planned political control. Mexico's government is in collusion with the violence and corruption. This subject has been examined by Hannah Arendt in her book "Origins of Totalitarianism" focusing on Nazi Germany and Stalin and Franz Fanon who was focused on the people subject to colonial violence.
Mexico's political system is rotten to the core and I think we are at the situation where it will take the power and control of a Bukele type leader to crush the violence that is occurring in Mexico. That type of leader is also going to have to expand it's tactics in not only suppressing the agents of violence but to crush the banking system that supports this violence. It is very possible that the idea of nationalizing your financial institutions will be the ultimate expression of freedom.
Thanks again, and these points of comparison are very useful, as you say, "From Idi Amin in Uganda, Jean Bokassa of the Central African Republic, Macias Ngueno of Equatorial Guinea, Papa Doc Duvalier in Haiti, Mao Sedung on his march of victory 1945-1947, Mau Mau uprising in Kenya and a very huge explosion of violence in a short time in Rwanda 1992." - There is a lot of periods of violence in countries that may not be full on wars but are eras of extreme bloodshed involving the state and other actors. I want to get more into this on a piece on the lines of "Is there an actual war in Mexico'" Best there.
The lawlessness and brutality of the cartels also filters down to small non-narco gangs that act with impunity due to the ineffective judicial system in Mexico.
These gangs kidnap, extort and murder knowing the possibility of getting caught is negligible. This is just another layer of criminal activity that goes mostly unnoticed because the cartels take precedent with the media and law enforcement.
Very good point DonDon. The big players shatter the system and set the rules and the small players can follow suit. It's a viscous circle. Best there friend.
This is more chilling than Stephen King. And you found those barrels! A disturbing and fascinating read.
At a tangent, you'll find this interesting - druggy Hitler and Germany WW2 heroin, cocaine, oxy and meth - https://www.npr.org/transcripts/518986612
Yeah, going to that ranch was macabre. But to be honest, I've covered more horrible scenes like when the corpses are all still there. It's kind of hard to realize you are doing it all although one day I might stop and go fxxx.
Fascinating and kind of hilarious about Hitler. Is that really true? Crazy. Same shit, different news story!
Journalists, of your rare breed, are, in the long run, like gang members coping with violence. We're all human. There aren't that many ways to deal with trauma.
Regards Germany, it seems logical that company manufacturing of drugs was the same as it is now. I can appreciate the NPR article without taking a deep dive. Thanks for the 'same shit' outtake :)
Thanks there brother. Yeah, it's funny how you see cops and their gangster witnesses who actually become friends to the point of sending each other Christmas cards. It's because they have seen the same dark world - and I think some us journos have seen it too and can raise a glass with them. Great lead there to dig in on German pharmaceuticals. A lot of drugs originated in the German chemicals industry.
I've seen it to. Sometimes used to have coffee with the local cop who ran a small mafia. And there have been politicians I've liked, eaten and enjoyed meals with, despite knowing I couldn't trust them, and that they'd turn on me in an instant if there were gain for them.
Same shit, different crime war!
"Mexico’s 400,000 murder victims since 2006".... Largely unacknowledged in USA, for contrast USA experienced 407,316 deaths in WW2
Yeah, that 400,000 number is a real jaw dropper. Perhaps two thirds are from the cartel war, although that figure is hard to figure. At some point I need the comparison of Mexico to other wars story. All best PinHead.
I'm a little confused, maybe you can help.
A cartel has people who do business but also employs sicarios.
My question is: if part of business is to extort, kidnap/ransom, racketeer then what is the difference between these two. I imagine the "business" persons also as henchmen due to the tasks related with their "job". lots of quotations there haha.
Thx
Thanks Stevie. I think these job positions can be blurred and also vary among groups. But the bigger cartels have people who are more dedicated to business and financial matters and things like laundering money, and others organizing shipments, or running distribution cells. And they have straight muscle, and people who are in cells of gunmen and go and kill whoever they are ordered to. Even with shakedowns they people who identify targets and get money, and pure killers who can be brought in. Hope that makes sense there. Best, Ioan
This is insane that it keeps happening over and over again. This is the reason why they are on the foriegn terrorist organizations list. The mob never had mass clandestine Graves like this in the united states. The only thing that compares to this in the states would probably be the slaughtering of the native Americans. Maybe the trail of tears or the wounded knee massacre. But what we see in Mexico is already khmer Rouge levels. It's ridiculous and Mexicans kept trying to "deflect" to the United States. It's pathetic. If the United States was the same as Mexico crime and violence wise then you wouldn't see that many Mexicans in the states in the first place. I say this as a Mexican American for crying out loud.
Very worthy points there Jonathan. I have no time for the arguments that there is not an extraordinary level of violence in Mexico that is well beyond normal levels of crime.
Yeah but the arguments I have with native Mexicans is "but muh united states is no different because mass shootings" I can't stand it
When was the last time you heard of a mass extermination site uncovered in America? Maybe where serial killers hid their victims but even then. It pales in comparison. The mob did dump bodies in secret graves but was it ever at this level?
Yep, it's a foolish comparison.
Ioan, I don't think war crimes trials in the past have been too successful nor just. World Court in the Hague is a perfect example of selective prosecution ignoring the real culprits of the genocides. The Nuremburg trials was extremely limited basically to Nazi's who could not offer, primarily the US, skills that was needed by the Allies. Certainly very few individuals could convince a country to ignore the past violence done to them like Nelson Mandela did in South Africa. But those desires for revenge fueled with the ideas of justice did not go away in South Africa and the attacks on whites and their farms has reignited. President Tito because of his past actions and his strength kept Yugoslavia together but when he died the country exploded in violence.
Soviet Union's collapse and a complete down spin into violence and corruption is very similar to Mexico now and of course Russia's collapse was ended by the strong leader in Putin. The sad reality is the lawlessness not only of cartels but also of the government does not lead to many non-violent solutions that could work.
Thanks Tom, and very interesting thoughts as always. I largely agree that the idea of war crimes tribunals is probably politically impossible and wouldn't solve the problem. The idea of truth commissions can have some benefits - like getting more truth out there - but again doesn't solve the fundamentals, and can involve a lot of grandiose statements being thrown out there. In some ways, I think the Mexican narco conflict might be a form or 30 year war and will finally die down from a mix of demographics and gradually building a more effective law enforcement, but let's see. People likely to have to accept aggressive law enforcement to deal with hyper violent criminals. Best friend.
The troubles did last for 30 years. And people thought it was politically impossible to end it. But a peace deal was worked out. So who knows. But Israel Palestine has been 75 years already and its still ongoing. Colombia 55 years and still ongoing. Somali civil war 35 years and still ongoing,
Myanmar conflict nearly 80 years and still ongoing so their is that too. I hope Mexico won't join that list of a forever violence ridden country but God only knows
The united states definitely gave birth to some pretty notorious criminals
Jesse james,
Billy the kid
John dillinger
Al capone
Bonnie and Clyde
Charles manson
Ted bundy
Jeffrey dahmer
John wayne gacy
The unabomber
But we have always had pretty equally competent law enforcement to combat our criminals
Absolutely. And cops have been widely celebrated in U.S. popular culture (with the big exception of the 2020 backlash) which I think reflects something real.
Yeah obviously American police aren't perfect. They have had fuck ups. Rodney king beating, goerge floyed, and their relationship with the minority communities but for the most part American law enforcement has always held the standard. The first swat team was created in the united states. Granted they are heavily scrutinized now and recruitment numbers are low across departments and the pay is pretty poor. Maybe not Mexico levels of poor but it's its not top dollar. That is definitely scary to me regarding the cartels
But your average American patrol officer has way more firepower than the average municipal policeman in Mexico who I hear have to share their equipment half the time
And even pay for their bullets in some cases - using the money they get shaking down drivers running red lights!
I would call the horrible violence in Mexico as another terrible example of the extreme arrogance of power where they tolerate no opposition and any slight they take to the most extreme levels of personal hatred resulting in death. They know instilling fear will enhance their power and force cooperation from everyone around. This extreme violence can also be an expression of vengeance resulting from class and cultural hatred against anyone who dares to challenge their authority.
Unfortunately history has been littered with these explosions of mass violence. From Idi Amin in Uganda, Jean Bokassa of the Central African Republic, Macias Ngueno of Equatorial Guinea, Papa Doc Duvalier in Haiti, Mao Sedung on his march of victory 1945-1947, Mau Mau uprising in Kenya and a very huge explosion of violence in a short time in Rwanda 1992. These explosions result from a previous history of tribal and ethnic violence resulting from the colonial designs of European powers. Mexico's colonial history was riddled with violence, corruption and class violence. The violence of Nazi Germany and Stalin in Soviet Union was more calculated and direct expression of planned political control. Mexico's government is in collusion with the violence and corruption. This subject has been examined by Hannah Arendt in her book "Origins of Totalitarianism" focusing on Nazi Germany and Stalin and Franz Fanon who was focused on the people subject to colonial violence.
Mexico's political system is rotten to the core and I think we are at the situation where it will take the power and control of a Bukele type leader to crush the violence that is occurring in Mexico. That type of leader is also going to have to expand it's tactics in not only suppressing the agents of violence but to crush the banking system that supports this violence. It is very possible that the idea of nationalizing your financial institutions will be the ultimate expression of freedom.
Thanks again, and these points of comparison are very useful, as you say, "From Idi Amin in Uganda, Jean Bokassa of the Central African Republic, Macias Ngueno of Equatorial Guinea, Papa Doc Duvalier in Haiti, Mao Sedung on his march of victory 1945-1947, Mau Mau uprising in Kenya and a very huge explosion of violence in a short time in Rwanda 1992." - There is a lot of periods of violence in countries that may not be full on wars but are eras of extreme bloodshed involving the state and other actors. I want to get more into this on a piece on the lines of "Is there an actual war in Mexico'" Best there.